Episode 101: Veteran's Administration lays off 80,000 Employees with Elizabeth Jamison

Disclaimer: Unedited AI Transcript

Announcer (00:00):

Today's episode of specifically for Seniors is brought to you by Memory Lane tv. A streaming service made just for people living with dementia. It's full of calming sensory friendly videos that help reduce stress and lift mood and science backs it up. Memory Lane TV is available for both home use and in professional care facilities. More information and links to Memory Lane TV are in the show notes. Below

Lsrry (00:30):

You are listening to specifically for Seniors, a podcast designed for a vibrant and diverse senior community. I'm your host, Dr. Larry Barsh. Join me in a lineup of experts as we discuss a wide variety of topics that will empower, inform, entertain, and inspire, and celebrate the richness and wisdom of this incredible stage of life.

New Speaker (01:04):

<Laugh>,

Larry (01:05):

We were off to sort of a bumpy start this morning, and I wasn't sure this podcast would come off today. Being a one person staff podcaster is interesting and at times embarrassing. Now, today's Thursday, June 12th, week ago, I sent today's guest an email confirming the podcast, as I always do, explain the procedure and listing the topics I'd like to cover. Because the email didn't bounce back. I assumed she received it until very early. And I mean, very early this morning when I got an email asking if we were still on, I had made an assumption that she had gotten the original email. I was wrong. So I'd like to start off by apologizing to Libby for any confusion.

Elizabeth Jamison (02:01):

Oh, no, no apology needed. It's the, the joys of technology. But here we are.

Larry (02:07):

So let me get into what proper introduction. A fact sheet@whitehouse.gov is entitled, president Donald J. Trump keeps promises to our veterans and establishes new Center for Homeless Veterans. I'll post the link in this show notes below on this page is the statement quote, president Trump strongly believes that every veteran deserves our gratitude and that the federal government should treat veterans like the heroes they are. Despite this, the Department of Veterans Affairs is reportedly planning a major reorganization that includes cutting 80,000 jobs in an effort to reduce the agency's workforce. To clarify what's going on, we asked Elizabeth Jameson to help us out. Elizabeth is an attorney with nearly two decades of experience in veterans benefits and federal employment law. She served as an attorney advisor at the Board of Veterans Appeals, and as a senior advisor to the White House, to the White House's Joining Forces Initiative, Libby played a key role in shaping the 2023 executive order on economic security for military spouses, caregivers, and survivors. Today through her law firm, she helps veterans and their families navigate the VA system with clarity and confidence. Welcome to specifically for seniors. Libby,

Elizabeth Jamison (04:00):

Thank you so much for having me.

Larry (04:03):

Tell our listeners about your background and how you became interested in Veterans Affairs.

Elizabeth Jamison (04:10):

Yeah. Well, I grew up as a Navy brat. My dad was a, a nuclear submariner and moved all over the place, including the Philippines and Hawaii. So had quite a exciting upbringing. And then I didn't really learn my lesson and married a naval aviator and stayed in the Navy family as a navy spouse for 20 years. I, I'll give a shout out to some of the other branches too. My, my grandfather was in the Army. My brothers were both Marines. My mom worked at the Coast Guard Academy. So we, we've touched a lot of the branches in our, in our family, but service was always something that was, was really important to us. And I went to law school after I met and married my, my husband at the time. And I naively thought, you know, there's lawyers everywhere. This is gonna be a great career for me even if we have to move around.

Elizabeth Jamison (05:09):

And didn't think about the requirement that I was gonna have to take a bar exam every time we moved to a new state, really. And yeah, they're really, really strict. You can get some reciprocity at a certain point, but you have to have practiced for quite a while. So as a young lawyer we moved from California to Florida, and I just said it would've been my third bar exam at, at that point. And I said, you know, I think I'm good on <laugh> on sitting for for a very stressful, very expensive exam. But I found a really great group of other military spouses in the legal profession, a military spouse, JD Network. And we came together and started advocating for reduced barriers for military families on some of these occupational licensing requirements. And I, I call that my gateway drug to broader advocacy for veterans and military families around economic wellbeing.

Elizabeth Jamison (06:12):

You know, we see so many folks these days have dual incomes to get by with the high cost of living. And, but that dual income is not always available to a military family because they are are moving around. And so you see a 20% unemployment rate for military spouses. You see about a 20% food insecurity reporting from active duty members. And that's not to say that the military isn't a a, a pathway to economic security for a lot of folks, but, but it's absolutely a challenge living that, that lifestyle moving every few years, especially in high cost of living areas like the DC area, Southern California. And so there's a lot of repercussions to that. And then that doesn't stop when you take off the uniform. You know, we're talking a lot about veterans today, and that is a distinct population from the, the active duty members.

Elizabeth Jamison (07:15):

But they carry the burdens of that service with them for many years. Right. Even after they take off, off the uniform. So for me, joining the VA as an attorney which I did back in, in 2016 was the best of all all worlds. It was a great mission helping waking up every day to help veterans get access to their benefits. And for my career, it was great. As a, a federal practitioner, I didn't have to worry about the bar exam anymore, and I was also able to take the job with me and keep working remotely even when we did continue moving around. So it was the first time I was able to get promoted and get a pay raise and, and stay and really develop in a job. And so I, you know, I, I really enjoyed my time at va, eventually went out on my own. Even more flexibility when you're own your, your own boss. And so that's how I, I got into a lot of this advocacy in the veteran space today.

Larry (08:22):

I was just about to ask you that. 'cause I'm a retired dentist licensed to practice in Massachusetts, but when I was in the Air Force, they let me practice in New Jersey. What a joy <laugh>,

Elizabeth Jamison (08:37):

Right? Right. Yeah. The federal licensing is, I mean, it shows that it can be done right, but there's a lot of work to, to streamline that between the states still.

Larry (08:50):

You work for both the Obama and Biden administrations working through joining forces, which was, I guess, a White House initiative focused on supporting military families. Can you tell us more about that?

Elizabeth Jamison (09:06):

Absolutely. Yeah. So joining forces was originally started under the Obama administration with Mrs. Obama and Dr. Biden. it went away under the first Trump administration. And when Dr. Biden when the Bidens came back, they revived it. And I was really fortunate to come on in, in 2021 and be a part of that revival. Unfortunately, it's now been <laugh> been shuttered again, which, you know, I think so many folks see, we're not maybe actively at war in Iraq and Afghanistan as we were when, when joining forces was started. But we're certainly still seeing, you know, national Guard deployments, active duty deployments. They're, the moving doesn't stop even when folks aren't deploying. Military families are still moving every two or three years. And then as we just talked about that impact, that ripple effect continues even after the uniform comes off. So, joining forces when it did come back in 2021 was really focused on military and veteran families as well as caregivers and survivors. And looking at the fact that there is this huge ecosystem between the DOD and the VA that supports service members and veterans. And sometimes those family members and loved ones are kind of left in the, in the fine print. And so we really focused on employment and entrepreneurship education for military kids, and then overall health and wellbeing for that community through the, the revival of joining forces.

Larry (10:53):

And you also played a pivotal role in president Biden's 2023 executive order on advancing economic security for military and veteran SP spouses and caregivers. What problems did that address the same as joining forces?

Elizabeth Jamison (11:18):

Absolutely. We really dove in, and I know that's a mouthful for a for an executive order, but we wanted to make sure we, we covered the full community there. But we had spent, as you mentioned, that executive order was in, in June, 2023. So we'd had about two, about two and a half years at that point, traveling with Dr. Biden. She was going into the military communities, talking to folks, hearing their stories, bringing them back to the president and, and the whole team at the White House and saying, what can we do? And we were also working this is really nerdy federal employee speak, but we had interagency committees where we would bring together, you know, DOD and VA and the folks that you would expect to be at the table, DHS, but also USDA, you know, department of Agriculture, OPM, the HR folks you know, the other agencies who maybe folks don't think of right off the top as impacting veterans and military families.

Elizabeth Jamison (12:26):

But those families are American working families just like everyone else in many ways. And so making sure everyone was at the table and thinking about solutions and what we could do do better. And so that executive order really drilled down, like it says in the title on that economic wellbeing. And, you know, unfortunately a lot of the work we did it has been rolled back now in the past few months because a big focus was on making the federal government an employer of choice for military and veteran spouses just like their loved ones in uniform. A lot of times the family members have a heart for public service too, and want to serve their country and federal service is a great way to do that. And it also makes sense. They're usually living near a military base or maybe they retired and stayed in the, in the area.

Elizabeth Jamison (13:21):

And there's a big federal footprint, as you know, around a lot of these military installations. So it's just common sense. You know, as well as when they go overseas, sometimes maybe a federal job is, is the only option when they follow their service member to Germany or Italy or Korea. And so this, the, the executive order really looked at what could we do before we go out and ask the private sector, Hey, we want you to do a better job at, at supporting this community. We had to look in-house first and look at a, a strategic roadmap, what we could be doing, again, across all of the agencies, do a better job on data collection and tracking. We do a pretty good job on tracking veterans working in the federal government, but not so much for, for spouses and caregivers. One of the things that we included that I knew from personal experience was a challenge was giving administrative leave between duty stations.

Elizabeth Jamison (14:27):

So when I was working for VA and we moved from Virginia to California, I had to take my own personal leave. You know, my, my service member spouse was off working and someone had to be there when the movers came and, and to deal with all of the logistics, and that had to come out of my own leave. So we asked the agencies to provide up to five days of, of administrative leave and then just more remote options, flexible options. Unfortunately, that's a lot of what is being rolled back now, but those are really game changers for not just military spouses, anyone who needs a little bit of flexibility in the workplace, and then better supporting these families as they go through the transition from, as I'm sure you experienced from active duty to veteran status can be, it's a real big change economically.

Elizabeth Jamison (15:22):

You know, you're, you're off on your own now maybe you're not living on base anymore. So it's a cultural change as well. And so really making sure that we were supporting folks through that, that whole journey. So, like I said, I, there were some really great wins we were really proud of, of what was in there. And and some of what was in there was then taken by the, the Chamber of Commerce and other groups to push for similar things within the private sector. So it really had a great ripple effect, not just in the, in the federal workforce, but asking private employers to look at job portability, offering that remote work telework offering that leave between duty stations. But like I said, unfortunately <laugh> this hostility towards the federal workforce right now is really impacting so many you know, 30% of the federal workforce is veterans, and then a huge number of, of military families on top of that. And they are really bearing the brunt of this these new policies that are coming out now.

Larry (16:34):

I, I was just in for a couple of years in, in the pre Vietnam Bay of Pigs period of time. Oh, wow. So I didn't get to experience all the transitions. I went in, I did my job for a couple of years, and I went out. So I was sort of excused from the real problems involved in moving around.

Elizabeth Jamison (17:04):

Yeah, yeah.

Larry (17:05):

There's also something called Title 38. You were a former advisor at the Board of Veterans Appeals. Can you explain Title 38?

New Speaker (17:18):

, How long do we have <laugh>? Briefly, free

Elizabeth Jamison (17:21):

Fleet

Elizabeth Jamison (17:22):

<Laugh>, right? So title 38, I won't bore folks too much with the legalese, but that is what governs a lot of the veterans benefits, veterans disability benefits. So for someone, whether they were in for a year or two or 20 years, you know, if they have a condition that arose that is related to service that either arose during service or sometimes as we see with, you know, agent Orange or the burn pit exposures, you know, it may not come to the surface until many years later. But Title 38 is what kind of sets the parameters for how folks can claim those benefits and then how those benefits are evaluated within va. So I guess again, without diving into, in too much, into legal speak, you know, veterans law is not really built for speed or simplicity, let's just say. And so veterans and their families are left, you know, a lot of the times trying to navigate that on their own.

Elizabeth Jamison (18:30):

And my role and other you know, veteran lawyers and advocates, our role is to help them cut through that noise, understand their rights, and, and access the support that they've earned. The other thing I would say is it's, it is a fairly new area of law when we think about, you know, some laws that have been around since the beginning of the country, or even based, you know, in common law before that, not to nerd out on, on the history of law, but we're still, we've seen just this year two cases go bet before the Supreme Court on veterans benefits about what standard of review should be applied. So what bar a veteran has to meet to, to have a, a claim considered. And then also education benefits. I think I, I deal largely in disability benefits. That is a huge piece of what VA does.

Elizabeth Jamison (19:30):

But there are plenty of other benefits again, that you, you know, you may be familiar with GI Bill the GI Bill for education that veterans and their dependents can access and VA home loans are also really important for folks to know about. And there are other, you know, there are caregiver support programs. There's a whole national cemetery administration that administers burial benefits for eligible veterans. So you know, it's a, it's a like I said, fairly new in many ways, area of law, which means that it's still developing and still being created in in some way.

Larry (20:15):

We'll be back right after this message when you get to my age, forgetting names and trying to remember why you went into a room of pretty common occurrences. Unfortunately, you also realize, like I did, that a family member can develop a more serious cognitive problem. That's why I am really happy to introduce you to Memory Lane tv. A streaming service made just for people living with dementia. It's full of calming sensory friendly videos that help reduce stress and lift mood science backs it up. Care centers using memory lane TV report, big improvements and less need for medication memory. Lane TV is available for both home use, by family members and caregivers and in professional care facilities. More information and links to memory Lane TV are in the show notes below. Check it out. And we're back. So these job cuts are going to effectively cut services that veterans are entitled to under Title 38. That's the direction it's going.

Elizabeth Jamison (21:54):

Right? Right. And there, it's, it is title 38 and and beyond, but there are, you know, they're talking about 80,000 plus staffing cuts. And I think it is easy to find things to complain about at va. It is a massive, massive operation, massive budget, largest nonprofit hospital system in the us. You know, and there's kind of the medical side, like I said, that that hospital system and then the benefits delivery side. So there's two, you know, kind of two pieces to it to, to simplify it. But the reality is that a lot of folks, although <laugh>, like I said, it's it's easy to find, find areas for improvement. Certainly weights and the administrative side. But the reality is, folks, it gets really high marks for healthcare and for treatment. Once folks are in the system. People are getting culturally competent care, often from other veterans and military families who work there who understand issues specific to our veteran and military family community.

Elizabeth Jamison (23:13):

You know, traumatic brain injuries, mental health challenges prosthetics have been a really big thing that VA has has mastered. And so when you talk about cutting 80,000 staff, you know, I struggle to understand, I think a lot of people struggle to understand how that's going to make things more efficient and better for veterans. And that's not to say there aren't places where we can find some efficiencies and to, and do better, but I think you, you may know some about the PACT Act that was also passed during the Biden administration to help veterans who were experiencing issues stemming from burn pits and toxic exposures. And we wanted to make sure we didn't make the same mistake that happened with Agent Orange, where we waited 20, 30 years to start addressing that. And so the PACT Act passed, opened the door to additional benefits and support for veterans who had been exposed more recently.

Elizabeth Jamison (24:25):

And I wanna say they're above 2 million claims processed just since the past ACT PACT Act passed. And so you have to have a surge in staff when you're opening the, the doors and bringing in more veterans. You need more staff to support that. And now the Trump administration wants to take us back to 2019 levels of staffing, and it just doesn't, you know, the numbers don't add up for the staffing piece, but also, as I mentioned, a huge portion of VA staff is they are themselves veterans and military families. So it's like a double whammy.

Larry (25:09):

So it affects job jobs as well.

Elizabeth Jamison (25:13):

Absolutely. Absolutely. You're affecting the economic security of these families by taking away a, a paycheck and a sense of service. You know, we were talking earlier about, you know, the great mission at va and for a lot of folks who can take off the uniform and but go to VA and continue serving in a different way, to pull that out from underneath them is just devastating.

Larry (25:37):

And, and it also means cuts to other research that's going on. And as you mentioned ending mortgage rescue programs,

Elizabeth Jamison (25:49):

Right? They, they ended a program that was helping veterans who were approaching foreclosure be able to stay in their homes. And that's, again, thousands of thousands of veterans having the, the rug pulled out from underneath them. And so I think, you know, and we're talking about the, that's a, you know, we talked about the staffing cuts and the impact that will have on the ability to deliver medical care on the ability to deliver benefits. And so that's one bucket. And then this other bucket, like you're talking about, is the actual program cuts. And I think we still have a lot to see on what's going to happen there, because if you look at Project 2025 and some of the other blueprints that they have for what, what policies this administration would would like to implement, they're talking about reconsidering how to evaluate disability benefits.

Elizabeth Jamison (26:50):

So potentially making it even harder to get disability benefits, maybe something that is secondarily linked to service, they would no longer allow, or you couldn't connect, you couldn't collect your retirement benefits and your disability benefits at the same time. You would have to choose one, even though they are two different, you know, retirement is you did your 20 years and it's compensating you for that and disability for, you know, what actually happened to your body that you're continuing to experience the repercussions from. And you shouldn't have to choose between those buckets. So there's a lot of of, of really harmful policies on the table that can really dig into the, the, you know, the economic wellbeing of this community.

Larry (27:45):

But didn't secretary Doug Collins say that the layoffs would not mean cuts to healthcare and benefits?

Elizabeth Jamison (27:56):

Yeah, I, I am really curious to see their math on that because I struggle to understand how, and, and to be fair, they are, I think are still the most recent statement I saw said they're still figuring out the plan for reform, but they do wanna do significant cuts to staffing. And I just don't think that math adds up. If you're laying off 10, 15% of the workforce, show us the math on how you're gonna continue to deliver these services and, and medical care. 'cause It, it's just common sense. It doesn't, it doesn't add up. But,

Larry (28:34):

But some of these reforms have already been introduced to improve services and benefits. How do the changes differ between what this administration is trying to do and what's going on?

Elizabeth Jamison (28:53):

Well, I think I, I'm not sure which you know, what has been introduced at this point other than pulling back some of the programs like the mortgage rescue program, when they, when this administration first came in, I wanna say fit January, February timeframe, they put a freeze on some programs, about 50 programs right out of the gate, and then they unfroze some of them. So I think that's some of the concern too, is this instability and folks don't know what, what is still available, what's not still available. But a lot of the changes that they, they want to make, like we were just talking about, potentially rolling back disability, making you choose between retirement and disability pay. Those are just, just really harmful. And then rolling back staffing, like we said to prepac ACT levels when we're still implementing the PACT Act, it just doesn't, doesn't add up.

Larry (30:05):

You are also a volunteer attorney for Federal Workers Legal Defense Fund. You're trying to reverse firings. How's that working out?

Elizabeth Jamison (30:18):

Right? So a lot of that is still playing out through the merit Systems Protection Board. And through the courts, we've seen the courts had to, to step in and put pauses on a lot of these efforts to fire folks across the agencies. And so I think that goes back to what I was talking about, this being in limbo. There are so many federal employees, and a lot of them, again, are veterans and military families who are now in limbo. Maybe they were told they are part of a layoff but then the court put a pause on it, maybe they've been told they're going to be brought back to the agency, but that hasn't happened yet. So there's a lot of u uncertainty. And as we saw for a lot of the probationary employees, there weren't as many protections as maybe they thought a lot of the probationary folks have been let go.

Elizabeth Jamison (31:17):

And there's, there's not really any grounds unfortunately some, you know, there's some certain exceptions, but they don't have the protections as probationary employees that that other folks did. And so we saw even folks who had been in federal service for a long time, maybe if they had just recently changed agencies or gotten a promotion and were in that probationary status, they were, they're now in jeopardy. And so it's been it's been really heartbreaking, especially as someone who, you know, I believe so strongly in federal service, especially for our veteran and military families as a, a pathway to economic security for them. And so to see it devastated, like this has been it's been really heartbreaking.

Larry (32:11):

This podcast is directed at older adults, specifically for seniors. There are more than 18 million veterans that are more than 65 years old. A lot of them I know personally depend on the Veterans Administration hospitals for medical care, wheelchairs, motorized scooters, rehabilitation, et cetera. I, I, is any of this specifically going to be aimed at older veterans?

Elizabeth Jamison (32:49):

So I have not seen policy specifically directed, you know, to that population. But I think to your point, so many folks in that cohort do rely on va. And so when we are talking about these reductions in staffing, or even, I have to go back on the, the employment piece for a second, because of all of this uncertainty, it's already been so hard to get doctors, to get nurses, to get medical professionals, IT professionals who can make more money in the private sector to get them to come and serve at VA can be a challenge. And I'm sure your listeners have seen that in some of their VAs where they are already understaffed. So to not just cut back, but to make this a more unstable employment opportunity hurts the recruiting, even when we do turn the spigots back on to hire folks, I think it's gonna be a challenge.

Elizabeth Jamison (33:56):

And so what does that mean for folks who are trying to access care at the va? It means delayed access where you have, you know, maybe the scheduler got laid off or took an early retirement, and so you're waiting longer times for appointments. You know, as your health is worsening, you're not able to get in. I think as we see the VA navigate their, their budget right now, they, they have asked for a pretty full fulsome budget. But if there is reduced funding that can you know, force closures for clinics, especially some of these smaller clinics in rural areas, you know, my dad is a veteran here in north central Washington. He already has to drive an hour just to get to the closest VA clinic. And so if that were to close, because it's a smaller clinic, you know, that certainly is gonna make accessing care more challenge.

Elizabeth Jamison (34:55):

And, you know, folks who use the telehealth option, because they are so far away, we could also see telehealth scaled down if there's you know, if there's fewer people to staff that and maybe they have to get shifted to providing in-service care to, you know, in-person care to fill some of those gaps. And so telehealth could be one of the areas that's, that's scaled back. And then I would say it's not just the medical care, as you talked about, it's accessing other benefits like getting a wheelchair maybe in-home in-home services caregiver programs. One of the things VA does is support caregivers who are maybe picking up some of that slack because VA doesn't have the full staffing. And so our caregiver's gonna continue to get the support and respite that they need. Suicide prevention programs, we saw a lot of headlines about how they, they tried to fire staff that were manning the, the suicide hotlines. And then the other benefits we talked about, you know, the GI bill, education benefits, va home loans, all of that is probably gonna be slower to be processed, which means more times that folks are coming out of pocket on their, on their own. So yeah, I think there's, there's absolutely repercussions. You know, regardless of, of the age of the veteran trying to, to access those services.

Larry (36:32):

Probably the most important question I have uhoh <laugh>, where can veterans get help if they run into problems?

Elizabeth Jamison (36:44):

Right? One place that I recommend folks start is with the VSOs, the Veteran Service organizations. And folks may already be familiar with, you know, American Legion disabled American Veterans, the VFW many of them have really great advocates folks who understand the benefits system inside and out. And, and those services are all a available for free. So that is a really great place to start. I would just tell folks, you know, you do have to be aware, there are some, what they call claim sharks out there, folks who are gonna advertise themselves as able to help, but they're gonna expect a fee in return. And that should absolutely not be the case, especially when you're initiating a claim, there is free and competent support available, especially through those, those VSOs. And then there, of course, there are lawyers like myself, I come in usually more at the appeals level where you've maybe hit your head up against the ceiling you know, with trying to process through VA channels and with some of these advocates. And then there are lawyers and other advocates that can step in and help. But yeah, there's plenty of great VSOs standing by to, to help folks again, either in person, A lot of times they're in the community, in person, or they can be accessed online or by phone. So

Larry (38:22):

Just to reemphasize, aside from services like attorneys veterans should really not be paying or have to pay for services to help them run through their problems.

Elizabeth Jamison (38:41):

Absolutely. And they can also reach out to the va. Sometimes even, like I know in the, the Seattle office here, the VSOs will have their offices co-located within the va, so it's kind of a one-stop shop. And they work really closely together. But yeah, especially right out of the gate to get the ball rolling you folks should not be paying a fee in, in fact, we can't collect, as, as attorneys, we cannot collect a fee for the initial claim. So if someone is telling you that, that you should be paying, they're, they're off base.

Larry (39:23):

Wow. 

Elizabeth Jamison (39:26):

Yeah, unfortunately it does happen, but there's plenty of of services available without a fee.

Larry (39:32):

Any closing thoughts on this whole subject of VA benefits and cuts to services?

Elizabeth Jamison (39:41):

Well, two things come to mind. One, I come across so many veterans who think they don't deserve, or there are other veterans who are more deserving of benefits. And I understand that mindset. Again, this is a community that really values service and, you know, has signed up to sacrifice their lives for us and for our country. But I hate to see them go without at least checking to see what they are are eligible for. And it's not a competition that, you know, your veteran buddy was hurt worse than you were. It, you know, we shouldn't be playing those games. You, we talked about Title 38, we talked about the law. The law. It is what it is. If you are entitled to benefits, you should absolutely pursue them. And maybe it's not just for you, maybe it's for your dependents, your spouse, your kids who could then benefit sometimes from, you know, there are tax exemptions that come along with it, maybe reduced or free college benefits that come along with it.

Elizabeth Jamison (40:50):

So you know, burial benefits. So I just really encourage folks to not let your, your heart for service get in the way of pursuing what, what you're entitled to. And then the second piece I would say, 'cause of a lot of what we talked about today is, and not to fear monger, but there are real discussions happening about cutting back some of these benefits. So if you have not applied now by now, now is the time to do it because we don't know what's going to happen and what new rules may be put into place to reduce some of these benefits. And so if you can get in and establish your eligibility and be grandfathered in you're in a much better position than waiting and seeing what, what happens and potentially waiting too long. And some of these get rolled back.

Larry (41:45):

Libby, I am so happy we made this happen today. I'm so happy. We we got everything straightened out. Thank you so much for coming on specifically for seniors.

Elizabeth Jamison (42:00):

Thank you so much for having me.

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