Episode 106: Narcissism and National Harm with Dr. Jocelyn Sze

Disclaimer: Unedited AI Transcript

Larry (00:07):

You are listening to specifically for Seniors, a podcast designed for a vibrant and diverse senior community. I'm your host, Dr. Larry Barsh. Join me in a lineup of experts as we discuss a wide variety of topics that will empower, inform, entertain, and inspire as we celebrate the richness and wisdom of this incredible stage of life.

Larry (00:40):

It is said that one day narcissist saw his own reflection in a pool and fell hopelessly in love with it, unable to tear himself away. It's also said that one day in June of 2025, the president of the United States saw his reflection in the Capitol reflecting pool, and was so infatuated by his own self-importance that he staged a birthday party for himself that involved a military parade that included tanks, flyovers, and up to $45 million of taxpayer money to celebrate his 79th birthday. Today's guest brings both clinical insight and civic urgency to this conversation. Dr. Jocelyn Szeis an assistant clinical professor at the University of California, a trauma psychologist with deep experience in narcissistic abuse. Her work bridges of the personal and the political helping individuals heal from psychological manipulation while illuminating how those same patents play out on the national stage. In her recent article, I'm a psychologist who specializes in narcissists. Here's what we need to do to stop Trump. Published in the Huffington Post, Dr. Z draws on years of clinical experience to unpack the psychological tactics of authoritarian figures, urging us to build what she calls psychological immunity, a kind of civic resilience against emotional chaos and gaslighting. Today we'll explore how trauma informed psychology can help us recognize, resist, and respond to narcissistic leadership, and why naming these par patents is essential to protecting democracy. Welcome to specifically for seniors, Jocelyn.

Jocelyn Sze (03:02):

Oh, thanks so much for that introduction, Larry.

Larry (03:06):

In your article you mentioned that this display of a military parade was one of the characteristics of a narcissistic personality disorders. Have you seen other examples of this in his behavior in the last couple of months?

Jocelyn Sze (03:26):

Yes, I <laugh> I would say unsurprisingly, that I have, and you know, of course as a psychologist, I'm not able to diagnose any public figure without personal examination, but I really do feel like it's very important for mental health professionals to be sharing accurate information about behavioral patterns that are associated with harm to others, harm to the public, especially when left unchecked. And so, in terms of some of those indications, you know, the first one I think about with severe forms of narcissism is entitlement and rule breaking. So, you know, if, if you're hearing someone saying that infamous line, I could stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone, then I wouldn't lose any voters. That's a really brazen declaration of I am, I can break any law, moral code, ethical code, and I'm going to get away with it. So that kind of inflated sense of self-confidence and belief that I can get away with anything that I want is one of the more alarming indications but certainly that constant need for admiration, loyalty, obedience from others.

Jocelyn Sze (04:51):

I think another one that is important for everyone to be educated on in narcissism is this term called reverse victim offender. So that's when someone might go, the narcissist will go on a aggressive and harmful offensive action, but simultaneously kind of in the same breath, rescript things to paint themselves as the true victim. Mm-Hmm. That is a very disorienting tactic that we might be observing right now in our government. And so I'll provide the information on, I'll let you and your listeners draw your own conclusions. And, and then the other one that I think isn't always in, in just the DSM definitions of narcissism, but for me, what I observe in patterns of narcissistic abuse tried and true is just this sheer velocity. So using speed and generating chaos as a way to trap others into a chronic state of reactivity. So you just really have a lot of difficulty building a cohesive and coherent long-term plan for yourself. That just sheer speed, the velocity of the chaos is something that I'll observe in narcissistic abusive dynamics.

Larry (06:15):

So this one, executive action after another That's right. Is part of the personality disorder.

Jocelyn Sze (06:22):

Yes, exactly. This unprecedented level in order of magnitude higher than previous presidents in terms of these executive actions and executive orders and emergency declarations, that's a very hallmark sign

Larry (06:38):

And, and the statement, I'm the president and I can do anything I want.

Jocelyn Sze (06:43):

Yep. I can do anything that I want and I alone am the one that can fix this mess. That fantasy of being the sole survivor that not survivor, the sole savior is a really harmful har hallmark feature of grandiose narcissism

Larry (07:02):

And, and that logo on the cap Trump is always right.

Jocelyn Sze (07:07):

Right.

Larry (07:09):

Do we need more examples? Sometimes

Jocelyn Sze (07:11):

<Laugh>, do we need more examples? That's right. We could, we could spend the whole hour on this.

Larry (07:17):

There are two terms. One you used in the article and Yeah. One I've heard about malignant narcissism Yes. And grandiose narcissists.

Jocelyn Sze (07:27):

That's right. Malignant narcissism is a very relevant term to be discussing right now. So that was coined by Eric Fromm in the 1960s. He's a social psychologist, so he was really observing patterns among cult leaders, folks like Hitler people that have produced disproportionate harm on others. And he was observing that they have this kind of triad of, of traits. Number one is this grandiose narcissism. Number two are these antisocial traits. And number three is a desire to inflict harm on others kind of intentional harm and exploitation of others with this kind of paranoid flavor underneath. And so that's actually not a clinical diagnosis. It's not in the DSM malignant narcissism. And it's more used in the field of social psychology, sociology because of this kind of duty to warn the public that that triad can cause a lot more harm to a lot larger kind of mass of people.

Larry (08:43):

You, you mentioned the word cult. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Is that what we're seeing in his sance?

Jocelyn Sze (08:51):

You know, I dunno if I'll I, I, I am not sure the answer to that, but I will say for things like grandiose narcissism, that cult of personality is a key feature. This ability to have an incredible amount of charisma and what's called cognitive empathy in narcissism. So narcissism is known to have a lack of empathy, but there is this cerebral empathy, this kind of incredible understanding of what people want and what people need, and knowing how to effectively manipulate those emotional desires and needs and, and even attachment relational needs that will see more in narcissists than with folks with antisocial personality disorder. That's why I think narcissism is one of the most frequent terms that we're using right now to try to understand the, the patterns we're seeing in government.

Larry (09:52):

Let's drop back a little bit to the family level. Yeah. What do you, what do you see in family relationships when there's narcissistic abuse?

Jocelyn Sze (10:02):

Yeah. You know, narcissistic abuse in families can be pretty, very tragically destructive. And not all narcissists engage in abuse. A lot of narcissists do, but not all of them do. But when we're talking specifically about narcissistic abuse, so that is using fear and bullying and manipulation, gaslighting as a way to intimidate and, and just control others around you and protect your own self-image at all costs. What you see in those family systems first is a lot of silence and minimization. So there is often this sense of walking on eggshells, this knowledge in the family that anything can lead to extreme and scary escalation. And so this desire in the system to reduce conflict and protect not always oneself, but even others within the family system where challenging the narcissist seems dangerous or impossible. So the family system will often learn how to tolerate abuse as a way to avoid destabilizing the family system.

Jocelyn Sze (11:17):

Often there can be really high stakes, whether it's financial security, access to one's children. And so we often will see different roles play out. There's often an enabler who's kind of working behind the scenes to try to clean up the messes. Narcissists can be very functional and intelligent and effective, but they do tend to be very impulsive and volatile, and that can cause a lot of mess ups, basically <laugh>. So you often have someone that's cleaning up the messes and protecting the narcissist from consequences. It's, it's very interesting. You have, you have a lot of different types of roles, and we could go into each role more, but those are some of the things that I'll observe in these family systems.

Larry (12:06):

And a, as you talk about a family relationship, it really does equate to the political stage. 'cause We're seeing that kind of background response toward the people who support Trump.

Jocelyn Sze (12:24):

Yeah. You know, I think as a psychologist, that's where I, I think about how these personal personality traits can do damage on a small family system. But if you give that person more and more power, they can have a wider and wider sphere of influence. And you can really see this, you know, we're all humans at the end of the day, and so, and our presidents are just human as well. And so you can see those types of personality traits just magnified on this much bigger scale. And then once you whip all these other dynamics, whether it's enablers, scapegoats into the picture, it, it just can kind of be that snowball that that picks up more and more speed and volume.

Larry (13:10):

Can, can you give us an idea of a playbook of narcissistic authoritarian political leaders?

Jocelyn Sze (13:20):

Sure. I'll, I'll try my best there. You know, I, I think number one, it starts with charisma. I think some democrats really don't see, you know, how could you see anything redeeming or charming about this, this in individual. But usually it will start with charisma. That that ability to very sharply, very keenly identify unmet needs, whether it's in a individual person or on a group level. And that sense of confidence of, Hey, I know what to do, I can fix this can be very enticing, very appealing if someone is worried about their future struggling concerned about how things are going in our government. So hooking folks in with that hypnotic charisma. You know, I had the bizarre opportunity when I was 20 years old as a student to meet Fidel Castro. And I will never forget his charisma.

Jocelyn Sze (14:26):

You know, he worked up this whole crowd of 600 students, signed one of my classmates passports, big, his big autograph on top of the passport, got the whole crowd laughing and and, and was really just like master of like a magician. I would say <laugh>. Right. so that's, that's one piece. And second is this control of the narrative. This very meticulous ability to control the story and get it out there to as many people as possible. I think that's something you would see in, in more narcissistic, authoritarian leaning leaders. And that, that that kind of strong man language projecting invincibility are some of those, those features and, and, and really big visions, they can think really, really big. Those grandiose visions are, are another feature.

Larry (15:35):

And it seems that when his supporters come to his defense mm-hmm <affirmative>. They respond in almost a programmed, rehearsed way yeah. Just the rapid speech, the repetition of, of statements he made and why they're effective. It, it's just a very strange way of having a conversation.

Jocelyn Sze (16:04):

Yeah. And that repetition, you know, in hypnosis repetition is the main tactic of hypnosis is really trying to bypass the central route of brain processing and move more towards peripheral routes. You know, there's studies that commercials are actually more effective if you are listening to them in the background while trying to focus on something else than trying to pay attention to the words themselves. So that repetition of just, let's just kind of keep that earworm over and over is, is very effective. And when I observe some of the speech patterns just from an attachment perspective, there's a lot of kind of, I love you, you love me. There's a lot of language that you'd use kind of in this idea of, of family as a way to kind of play to that attachment system and create these emotional bonds artificially and, and quickly.

Larry (17:04):

Yeah, because I, because I've noticed when someone is interviewing one of his supporters, regardless of who it is, the speech pattern is almost identical. Mm-Hmm

Jocelyn Sze (17:15):

<Affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think we're social creatures, right? So there's this effect where we can really have group think, and all of us are subject to that. I think that's very important for folks who are scratching their heads, being like, what's happening here? To know that I'm subject to it as well. We're, especially if we're in a massive of people, there's a thousand others around us we're, we're all social creatures who are sub subject to that type of group think. And I think what is what really bums me out, one of the things that bums me out about, out about, you know, narcissistic cult-like behavior is for people that find themselves attracted to that, there's, if there is a moment of disagreeing, of having an independent thought, that person is usually outcast very quickly. They're kind of banished. And so it can, you know, all sometimes work on the other side of someone that's leaving that kind of narcissistic hold and that feeling of betrayal of, you know, I thought we were buddies. I thought we were aligned and on the same team, but the moment that person is actually developing an independent thought, if I disagree they're usually cut out very quickly and, and kind of immediately outta favor. And that is it's, it is a horrible experience.

Larry (18:45):

That's what you see, though.

Jocelyn Sze (18:47):

That's right.

Larry (18:49):

When you're counseling family members who face this kind of narcissistic abuse Yeah. What are your recommendations? How do you counsel 'em?

Jocelyn Sze (19:00):

You know, I think it, it depends on a lot of different factors in terms of severity of narcissism. So some folks will be in family systems where there can be reciprocal improvement. There can be, Hey, you know, I'm identifying that my partner has narcissistic personality traits. The person with the narcissistic personality traits is identifying, Hey, I don't wanna lose my family members. And there can be these kind of shared agreements to say, how do we work with this so that no one's harming anyone? And that we are strengthening and, and nourishing our relationship. So that is something that absolutely can happen and is a, is a bright spot in this world. There's going to be times where both parties aren't on the same page, and one person doesn't want to kind of take accountability or make movements towards, towards some improvement earnest efforts.

Jocelyn Sze (20:12):

Right? and so that's where setting boundaries, whether the boundary could be divorce or the boundaries, could be, you know, acceptance that we're agreeing to stay together, but I'm not going to put up with X, Y, and Z. And there's going to be consequences, natural consequences to, you know when those boundaries are, are, are violated. So I think there's, there's a lot of different pieces here. But the first often just involve healing and, and kind of getting out of reactivity, that kind of walking on eggshells and, and reorienting the focus from paying all their attention towards the narcissist and how to make them happy, and how to not poke the bear to how to, how do you make yourself happy, you know, and how do you take care of yourself? So I would say that's one of the first steps. It often involves social connection. If you are the victim of narcissistic abuse, it's often extremely isolating. And so reconnecting to others around you is usually one of the very first steps that I'm, I'm helping folks. Do

Larry (21:29):

You used the term psychological immunity? Yeah. Is that what you're referring to?

Jocelyn Sze (21:35):

Yeah, that's right. You know, I think I, I've mostly in my career been thinking about this on a one-on-one basis or family basis, how to build psychological immunity. I'm more and more thinking of this on a collective basis. How do we as a people build psychological immunity? And I think it's actually very important to just protecting our democracy to, to be able to do that. But yeah, those would be some of the, the features of psychological immunity is calling out the harm, kinda naming what's happening with each other through podcasts, through exactly what you're doing, Larry. Getting out of reactivity and regulating our nervous systems, supporting each other, and how we're doing that co-regulating, and then setting these boundaries through upholding the law, or, you know, by saying no.

Larry (22:30):

Now on a grander scale in politics, we've got academic institutions, law firms, <laugh> political parties, people buckling under the fear of a narcissist. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. Is, is the, are the recommendations the same on a, just on a grander scale, or are we looking for something special?

Jocelyn Sze (23:04):

You know, I think some of the recommendations are the same, and I imagine some of them that are outta my own depth as a psychologist, not a historian or a political scientist, for example. I'm sure there's some strategies that should be looking different. Right. But I would say what I, what mental health professionals can share is just their experience in just how high the stakes can feel. It feels almost life or death when you are buckling. There's some sort of, I cannot tolerate the consequences of this, the wrath and the punishment the persecution that I'll be under if I stand up and say, Hey, cut it out. No, this is not okay. So I see that buckling happen time and time again, and I actually have a tremendous amount of empathy for it when it comes to big corporations who have loads of money.

Jocelyn Sze (23:59):

I have less empathy, certainly when it's just profit driven. But there is going to be other situations, you know, where someone is very afraid of losing their job and the consequences that would entail to their families, where that that preemptive obedience and that buckling happens on a small scale all the time when it comes to narcissistic dynamics, and it's gonna happen on a broader scale as well. And so I think that's where by sharing information with each other in the ways that you're doing we are building this collective web to say, Hey, I got your back. Like, I'm gonna support you if you stand up, I'm gonna stand up with you. You can never do this alone. It's very, very dangerous to stand up to a narcissist by yourself. You're gonna get crushed. Right? and so really sharing that, yes, the stakes are high when you stand up, but also the stakes are actually much, much, much higher when you don't stand up. And so that's what I see on the individual basis. When families choose not to stand up, the harm can last for generations. Right? It, there is no end to the harm. So I really see the, the cost of not standing up is, is 10 times worse <laugh> than, than the short term cost of, of standing up.

Larry (25:26):

But Trump seems to have a way of like, with academic institutions, like separating them. Yeah. Yes. So that they don't have the opportunity to work together.

Jocelyn Sze (25:39):

That's right. That is 1 0 1. Part of this playbook is divide and conquer, use division, use fear, use scapegoating, and pitting each other against each other. And so that division is, is one of our worst enemies right now. If, if we stay divided, if Democrats stay, if there's infighting and, and inability to kind of pick some basic priorities to hammer over and over again in a united way, you know, it's, it's game over.

Larry (26:11):

Get one to collapse and the wrist will fall like

Jocelyn Sze (26:14):

Dominoes. Yep. That domino effect. That's right.

Larry (26:19):

A lot of this is just not centered on groups like academic institutions like law firms, but it affects us as individuals. Right. Even Trump's action on a university gets to us as, as a person. Absolutely. How do we, how do we defend ourselves?

Jocelyn Sze (26:45):

Absolutely. I mean, I, I think first just acknowledging that, that this is getting to us on a nervous system level is, is really important. So I think just first normalizing when folks are having sleep disruption and they're ruminating a lot, they're checking the news constantly, that these behaviors are really normal right now, and you're not alone. You know, I work primarily in an individual therapy format where folks will report, like, am I the only one that's freaking out in this way? You know, but I'm hearing this every day constantly. So I can very much tell any listeners right now, you know, if they are feeling tremendous anger and grief and despair, you know, they're in good company. So I think first is just naming that and starting that co-regulation process to say, don't, just don't suffer in silence and don't suffer in isolation.

Jocelyn Sze (27:43):

That's not, that's not safe. Right. and then once we start to identify, you know, just how dysregulating these tactics of narcissistic abuse are and, and calling it out as such, right? Not doing this gaslighting where we say, we don't know why people are stressed out and we don't know, you know, why they might be you know, worried all the time to say, yeah, of course you are. And, and then moving towards how do we, how do we regulate the nervous system? You mentioned, you know, using that trauma informed perspective. So I do, you know, educate all my clients on not just fight, flight and freeze, which are commonly known as, as kind of trauma reactions to a threatening environment, but there's also reactions like flop, which is even more extreme than freeze. Where as mammals, we've been programmed to sometimes play dead where we have, it's, it's almost like a barren hibernation.

Jocelyn Sze (28:46):

So folks feel like, oh, I feel heavier when I'm waking up in the morning and I feel less motivated. And I just wanna give up that, that is a reactivity response, right? There's also fawn, fawn is trying to go into people pleasing and do that preemptive obedience of, I'm gonna do what the bully says because I'm afraid of what might happen. I'm gonna try to make nice, right? So just being able to identify like, which of the five fight flight phrase flop V might I be in right now, normalize that. Never judge yourself negatively if you find yourself in that state. And then the next step is how do, how do we not stay stuck in one of these states for too long? We do get in trouble if we just kind of camp out and we stay and flop. There's nothing I can do. I'm gonna just give up and roll over. Right now. We, we do get in trouble if, if you stay in any one of these states for too long,

Larry (29:52):

What, what happens to those of us who react exactly the opposite way and refuse to give in and can't wait till they get to their substack page to say something absolutely snarky,

Jocelyn Sze (30:06):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Good for them. I guess, you know, I think it really matters in terms of how, how well is it working for an individual and yeah. And, and is it causing any problem or harm? And if not, then fantastic. You know, I, I would call that the fight response, and we need people fighting right now. But I think importantly, we want fighting to be happening outside of reactivity mode. So reactivity means I'm triggered, I am in a black and white kind of thinking space and I have less control over my behaviors and my responses. And I might do something that I regret. So typically we want, would want people to get the support they need to kind of feel more grounded and then fight, you know? Absolutely. use,

Larry (31:03):

What about those of us who actually enjoy the the fight response <laugh>? Yeah. And, and look forward to,

Jocelyn Sze (31:12):

And more power to you. You know, you, if you can couple joy with fight, that's, that is a winning strategy. I think the trauma response is really when people get stuck in like joyless cynicism and outrage that is not beneficial to oneself for others. But if you can use it as like, spark and fire, then I think that can be tremendously motivating to actually channel that into collective action, into taking care of your loved ones. And, and, and really aligning with your values and what matters to you. That's energy.

Larry (31:58):

Okay. So what didn't we cover? What didn't we explain about a narcissistic personality?

Jocelyn Sze (32:08):

Hmm. Oh gosh. That,

Larry (32:10):

That will help us those of us who don't enjoy the the opposite fight response, right? How do we, how do we advise people who are just can't get their mind off this?

Jocelyn Sze (32:29):

Yes. You know, when I have someone that's sharing their experience of I can't get my mind off something, and it doesn't have to have to just be with narcissistic abuse, it can be a whole lot of things. I'm often thinking about this, this principle in psychology called emotional substitution, where we might move into the more kind of repetitive rumination as a way to defend against other emotions that feel more uncomfortable to be experiencing. So sometimes it's grief, for example. We are both powerful as humans, but also powerless. And so there, there, and, and there's gonna be moments where people are feeling very powerless right now to affect the type of change that they want to be doing. And there's grief involved of saying, Hey, I care about democracy. I care about decency and, and dignity for humans. And there's another term called moral injury.

Jocelyn Sze (33:35):

When there are things that are very important to our morals and our values, and we see that being destroyed there or taken away that, that's, that's a wound, that's an injury. So when we are wounded, when we are injured, there usually is some amount of grief and letting go of what's beyond one's control that is important so that we can move away from these. I can't stop thinking about this. I have to think about this all the time. That's more, almost a verbal distraction from deeper emotions of saying, Hey, I need to take breaks from this. This is a, this is a marathon, not a sprint. I need to kind of restore myself and understand I have a little corner of my life that I can control, and I probably do need to be double doubling down on right now towards some proactive action to defend the things that I care about.

Jocelyn Sze (34:32):

But that there's, there's gonna be time for rest, grief and joy, most importantly doing little things. I would say another piece is for folks to not get grandiose around the types of actions that are possible. And that I think we often minimize the tiny actions, you know, bringing nourishing food over to a neighbor who is sick. Like, those are ways that people are investing in the collective resilience of their communities, creating stronger, healthier communities that can sustain, you know, this long haul of, of resistance. So yeah, I think the, those, those little tiny actions we often just discount as meaningful, I think. I think they're tremendously meaningful right now.

Larry (35:38):

Jocelyn, thank you. This was a great explanation of what's going on and how we can support ourselves through times like these. Thank you so much for coming on specifically for seniors.

Jocelyn Sze (35:57):

Thank you, Larry. Thank you for all you're doing. I really respect what you're doing here.

Larry (36:03):

Respect. I'm trying.

Jocelyn Sze (36:05):

<Laugh>,

Larry (36:06):

Thanks again.

Jocelyn Sze (36:08):

You are so welcome. Thanks for having me.

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