The Grand Canyon Run with Rick Mater

Disclaimer: Unedited AI Transcript

Larry (00:07):

You are listening to specifically for Seniors, a podcast designed for a vibrant and diverse senior community. I'm your host, Dr. Larry Barsh. Join me in a lineup of experts as we discuss a wide variety of topics that will empower, inform, entertain, and inspire as we celebrate the richness and wisdom of this incredible stage of life

Larry (00:38):

Here at specifically for seniors. We are always on the lookout for stories that will inspire my daughter. Emily met our guest while walking her dogs in the Hollywood Hills. When she told me his story, I asked them to be a guest on specifically for seniors. Rick Mader is a longtime runner and Emmy nominated TV executive living in Los Angeles. He was born in Pinner England and grew up in California, New Jersey, and Munich, Germany, a miler in high school. He led it in cross country and college and has run the Grand Canyon twice as a cardiac patient, a heart attack survivor. He has forced fence in his left anterior descending artery. Artery. And for those of you who don't know what the LAD is, it's called the widow maker. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And he has a defibrillator implanted in the side of his chest. He's the author of Six Hours Running For My Life in the Grand Canyon. Welcome to specifically for Seniors, Rick.

Rick Mater (01:53):

Thank you, Larry. And here's, and this is what the book looks like. And, and not to push it, but and it's available in through bookstores. Amazon, you know if anybody's interested in my website is rick mader.com, which has plenty of information and photos.

Larry (02:14):

Go ahead, push it. Why not

Rick Mater (02:16):

<Laugh>? <Laugh>.

Larry (02:18):

Hey Rick, I mentioned you were an Emmy nominated TV executive. Can you tell us a little bit more about your working life?

Rick Mater (02:26):

Oh, that was really in my career. I was a producer at KCBS TV here in Los Angeles. So doing a lot of local talk shows, magazine shows, documentaries, and the, the documentary that was up for an Emmy was on, it was called Hollywood Runaways, and Hollywood's always been a magnet for runaways. So it was addressing the problem and solutions and was very well received. And that, yeah, that was a fun part of my career.

Larry (03:01):

You are a lifelong runner, but in middle age you had a heart attack. Are you comfortable talking about it to the listeners?

Rick Mater (03:11):

Sure. because it goes to, it goes to a lot of things actually. But also one thing is that it's not, a heart attack isn't necessarily predicated on an unhealthy lifestyle. And in my case, it was genetic. I was on a run in 2007 and I had a heart attack and I was shocked. I actually finished the workout <laugh> walking instead of running. That's a little, a little compulsive. Plus I couldn't quite believe it, but I felt a sensation in my chest. So it turned out I had a fully occluded LAD, it should have been fatal. But my cardiologist told me that distance running and other sports build up ancillary blood vessels. And there was just enough ancillary blood vessels around the point of the occlusion that I didn't have a massive fatal heart attack. And actually, so I had three stents put in and was told I should really hang up my running shoes.

Rick Mater (04:16):

Needless to say, <laugh>, that's not what I wanted to hear. Plus it had just saved my life. So I got a second opinion and I worked with another cardiologist. We agreed I'd keep it my to 10 to 10 miles in terms of a maximum running distance, though I went more than that in the Grand Canyon. So and I, I'll just say add to that, there's a international group called Cardiac athletes.com. They originally started in Australia, but it's a great support group. If there's any listeners that that exercise, and I've been through a heart attack the cardiac athletes is, is is similar in that it's various athletes in all sports that, just like me, I was 59 when I had mine. Sometimes they're even their thirties. You know, people that have cardiac issues early on and then and want to go back to the sport that they, they've been doing. So I highly recommend that as a a, a great kind of source of information. You know, people that have been through stents or defibrillator can speak on the subject and support other members.

Larry (05:26):

I was gonna ask you about that later. I'm glad you brought it up. Your heart attack didn't keep you down though.

Rick Mater (05:37):

No. I worked my way. Took about, I think a month. I kind of got ahead of the schedule, but the schedule was to try a mixture of walking and running. And I, I remember the day I was going up to Mulholland, you know, you could up at the top of the Hollywood Hills and I started running a little, little more than the walking breaks. And, and and it was, it was great. It was like an epiphany. It was like great to be back on a sunny day. And you know, I didn't, I was, I didn't have any of the symptoms, you know, like pain in the chest, you know, stuff I was supposed to be watching for. And and I went for a hike in the Grand Canyon with a cousin of mine and some friends, and I started thinking, wow, wouldn't this be a great run? And, and then I got delayed a year because I, I flunked a treadmill test going into the run which I probably took to keep my family happy. My daughters were fairly young at the time and were concerned. And it turned out I had 80% occlusion in the LAD again, so I had another stent. And then I waited till I had to wait till 2012 or 2011 to run the canyon.

Rick Mater (06:58):

And I, I come across a online blogger, maybe in his thirties, and he'd done it in under six hours. So I, Harvard early picked that as as my time goal. So I was gonna run it and do it in under six, six hours. It's 17 miles from the South Kabob Trail down to the Black Bridge along the Colorado River Phantom Ranch across the Silver Bridge. And then you do Bright Angel Trail all the way back up to the South Rim, which is, which is really tough. That's that last, that last part of the, those several miles going up that the Bright Angel are incredibly steeped.

Larry (07:41):

We'll show some slides in a minute. Why the Grand Canyon?

Rick Mater (07:49):

It was I was gonna joke and say it because it was there. It was, it, it was really because I went on that hike with my cousin. I, I had been there years ago, but I'd never gone very far down. And my cousin went every year, so it just, I was a runner. We're going, I actually decided to go on ahead and kind of went solo and tried out running on parts of the South <inaudible>. So it's just so iconic, you know, and it's a, a, a, a terrific challenge that it just really appealed to me to, to get out there and kind of re you know, complete the recovery from the heart attack, basically.

Larry (08:31):

That's a high risk run, isn't it?

Rick Mater (08:35):

Yeah, I get into it in the book. And the older you are, frankly, the more high risk it is. There, you know, something like 500 people have died in the Grand Canyon. I actually got into some of the stories, everything, everything from, from, you know, flash floods to dehydration, to falls. I mean, literally every year there's several stories in the news about you know, really sad stories of people that fall from, say, AWA Point or one of the other overlooks in the Canyon. 'cause They're not fenced off, you know, they're natural. There's that, there's, there's the water issue. I actually, the Trans Canyon Pipeline, which supplies water from from spring in the North Rim all the way up to south Prim had actually had a couple breaks in it. And, and I was waiting whether it would be fixed and, and, but to make sure I was covered, I had like five bottled waters with me.

Rick Mater (09:43):

So I ran with my own water. So even if the Trans Canyon pipeline was still broken, I was covered. And I also brought a, I did the can twice. I think I might have waited to do the map the second time, but I highly recommend bringing a map, a trail map, drum map, and keeping water in mind. That's why it's best to go down the South Kaibab which is a rich trail. And then go back up Bright Angel, because Bright Angel has, has several water watering spots, including Indian Garden so that, so it makes more sense, you know, go down the south, KIBO come up where it can get water. 'cause You're near the end of the run. You don't wanna get dehydrated. So at Indian Garden, for example, you stop, you can get water.

Larry (10:34):

Those aren't the trails or are they that the mules take when they go down?

Rick Mater (10:39):

Yes, they are. And I mentioned it in the book, 'cause it, it can, it can hold you up for a bit. They are the, they are the trails that like there's mules taking at Phantom Ranch, there's actually a general store and there's mules that take the trash and there's a camping area. So Mule, there's mule trains that take the trash out. So, so yes, you can come across a Mule train and have to step aside and wait for it to pass.

Larry (11:07):

And those paths aren't that wide.

Rick Mater (11:11):

It's there's several feet wide. But yeah, it's I mean, it's wide enough, but there's spots where you have a really steep drop. And there's also the issue of what I call in the book Cross trail logs. If you have a, a photo of the Bright Angel Trail or South Kaibab that you wanna put up I think it, it, it basically, they hold back the, the, the, the dirt, you know? Okay, that's great. That's, that's the South Kaibab that's looking up towards the south realm that's coming down the south, south Kaibab, that's O'Neill Butte on the right. But if you can see it there, those are logs across the trail to hold the dirt in place, but they get rutted in between. So it's, it's like, it's like running through a, a, you know, tires on a, on a obstacle course. So it's really tricky and you absolutely don't wanna take a header. You don't wanna fall off the trail. And the book, I talk about literally doing a cadence count just to stay focused as it as it went down.

Larry (12:18):

So this isn't street running, that's for sure.

Rick Mater (12:21):

<Laugh>, no. Then that's one of the things that makes it challenging. Also, if you're a cardiac patient, you're on blood thinners. So frankly, it's really dangerous if you were to fall and hit your head. Yeah. So if any, if anybody wants to do it, you know, it depends on your age, your conditioning, and of course there's always hiking or hiking partway down.

Larry (12:44):

What time of year did you do it?

Rick Mater (12:47):

In the summer, in June it's the best time to do it right before everything gets super hot. Also in basically from October to to end of April, there's snow, you know, the elevation is 7,000 feet on the South Rim. So, so, you know, the best time to do it is early summer, early fall, kind of avoid July and August. Also, you know, for the run, basically I went down really early in the morning because the gorge, you know, it can be 70 degrees at the top of the south room when they start. And the gorge can be 110 by the time, you know, like at noon. So the idea is to, to get, go down and get out of there if you're running it. Obviously if you're hiking, there's more flexibility, but it gets, it gets incredibly hot down in the gorge.

Larry (13:45):

And at 7,000 feet being a cardiac patient, that's another problem.

Rick Mater (13:52):

Well, that didn't, that didn't bother me. It does help that you start out going down. So the stress and the real work is coming up. So, so it doesn't immediately, but that's actually also tricky because if you're going up a mountain, for example, hiking, running, whatever, your limits kick in at some point. A tricky part of the path Grand Canyon is you can get lulled into thinking everything's fine because you're going down at the beginning as opposed to going up a mountain. And <laugh>, you can get a little out over your skis if you're not in shape. You know, just, so I actually worked out on Mount Wilson here in Los Angeles, which is 5,000 feet, and that kind of replicates the distance from the, the South rim to the gorge. And, and I was in shape, I was in shape to do it even though I was 64.

Larry (14:56):

Let's take a look at the whole run. I've got a map that we can show. If you can describe the, the root and the elevation as we go through it.

Rick Mater (15:11):

Sure. It starts at the, I'm not sure these, do I put my finger on the screen? What's the best way to,

Larry (15:15):

It's not gonna help <laugh>,

Rick Mater (15:17):

It's not gonna help. Well, off to the, in the lower right hand corner is the South Kabob trailhead, and there's black arrows that, that take it down to Wa point, Cedar Ridge OT point's, like is the first place where you can see out over the whole Grand Canyon. It's marvelous. You just have to be careful. It's very small. A woman did fall from there about two years ago, just a tragic story. It's just, you know, you gotta keep your wits about you. So that's Uah point down to Cedar Ridge, which is about a mile down. And that's kind of an open area. You can tie a ticket break if you're just hiking O'Neill Butt's a a a big landmark off to the left. And by the way, that's a fascinating character, which I get into in the book. It was named after a guy who was one of Teddy Roosevelt's rough riders.

Rick Mater (16:10):

And of course Teddy Roosevelt played a role in the Grand Canyon becoming a national park. Then it's down to Skeleton Point, the tip off working your way down to the river, which is at the bottom there. And you can see the green follows it to Phantom Ranch. You, you, I should mentioned, there's the black bridge at the river. That's, that's a place to cross over. There used to be a way trickier, even a suspension bridge before that was built in like the 1920s. There's a silver bridge for the way up that was built in the 1970s. And then the rest of it pipe Creek Ravine Devil's corkscrew to Pi Narrows. That's all Bright Angel Trail, Indian Garden. And that takes you up to the, to the south Room. And by the way, a fascinating angle to this. I took geology as a science requirement in liberal arts college.

Rick Mater (17:06):

I never thought it'd be handy for anything until I did the Grand Canyon, until I wrote the book. The fascinating to me, and you're talking about why we're around the Grand Canyon, this is one reason. It's all the levels, the layers, geological layers, they should be buried, you know, deep underground or all exposed here. So literally at the top of the South Kabob Trail, you start out running through 300 million year old South Kabob limestone. And you're actually running on the remnants of the last Supercontinent Pangaea, which, which broke apart 200 plus million years ago. And, and super continents have all the, you know, every several hundred million years, all the continents on earth combined together in the cycle. And, you know, geologic plates moving around and then they break apart. And that's one reason why South America and Africa fit together so well is because they were once part of Panga.

Rick Mater (18:06):

So you go through layers of geologic time until you hit the River Gorge, which is fish New sch, which is 1.6 billion years ago. So it's a fascinating journey through geologic time, which is kind of a nice metaphor if you're writing a memoir to kind of work off, which I, which I did in, in in the book. And Pangea I just found really fascinating, you know, when you get into that because it's kind of like this Atlantis kind of thing. 'cause It's where mammals originated. So it's kind of the ancestral home of man back when mammals were just, you know, tiny little creatures. You know, it was part of the age of dinosaurs. And, you know, it's the world we have now is Pangea split apart. And eventually, and I, and I have this in the book the next super continent's going to be Pangaea Ultima that some people have, some has already named it. And that's, you know, California's gonna go north and run it to Japan, et cetera. And Panga will be reformed the end of years in the future.

Larry (19:15):

We've got a few more pictures of the actual scenery.

Rick Mater (19:22):

That's the view from <inaudible> Point on the way down, looking down towards

Larry (19:27):

O'neill Butte.

Rick Mater (19:29):

I've got a low flying helicopter coming through here. <Laugh>, you're hearing that. So the, it's, it's gorgeous. The first time you're coming down south, south Kaibab, it's really just a rocky outcropping. But you can see you're looking out over the whole Grand Canyon, over to the North Rim. And a landmark is O'Neill Butte, which is there. And this is early in the morning. I took it on on a hike you know, from the Canyon of Hike Canyon. So this, the Sun's coming up, it's bathing O'Neill Point. And then that picture we saw before is the trail running just below? Yes. That's just below, that's down there, just below O'Neill Butte.

Larry (20:11):

And then you mentioned the river.

Rick Mater (20:14):

Yes, that's the silver bridge. So once you go down and across the Black Bridge in the gorge and go to Phantom Ranch, when you cross the river again, this is the Silver Bridge, which is a pedestrian only bridge. The Black bridge has like mule trains on it and stuff. This was built in the 1970s. It carries the Trans Canyon pipeline, which was built back then. So it runs under, it runs under the bridge and takes water up to the South Rim. So you're at the bottom, that's the Colorado River. And you pick up the River Trail on the other side and follow it along until you hit Bright Angel. And that's further up. Bright Angel coming. That's to Petes Narrows. I mean, I, I mentioned the tricky part about flash floods. You just have to be careful. The, the thing that makes it tricky is that flash floods can occur from a rainstorm away from the rim of the canyon, and then the water, but the water drains into the canyon. Nothing like that happened on my run. But I do, it can be dangerous and I that it's, it is important to pay attention to the weather forecast, but that's gorgeous. That's going up through layer geologic layers. There's a stream there, and you're working your way back up towards Indian Garden and the South Room.

Larry (21:42):

You accomplished a lot since your heart attack. Do you have any advice you would give to people with physical or mental medical limitations?

Rick Mater (21:56):

It's, it's, it's, so obviously you need to consult your doctor, so it's tricky because it's so, everyone's so different. But I, I'm a big advocate of exercise. You know, I went back to running in 1994 and, and it just really paid off. It literally saved my life. And that's not exaggerating. That's, that's literally what the cardiologist told me. So it's a, you know, exercise, walking you know, or you, or it's really never too late to run if you do a careful, you know, walk and run program. I'll plug somebody else's book. There's, there's the bestselling running author in America is as Jeff Galloway to a lot of people probably I think you're gonna have heard of. And this is his most recent book, and it's called Running Until You're a hundred <laugh>. And he's a former 10,000 meter champion. I actually went to a running camp of his in Lake Tahoe in like 1995.

Rick Mater (23:03):

So he is a, he's a terrific teacher, and this is a, like a really common sense approach to exercise and running. And it staves off, I mean, anecdotally and medically, it STAs off things like hip replacements and all that, knee replacements if you stay active. So I just did a workout this morning, four miles up to Mulhall, not up all the way up to Mulhall. And I do that on Sunday. Since the rain's here, <laugh> take, took a break. So motivating yourself to get out there. But, but, but obviously you need to, like I said, talk to your physician and, and be careful about it. But it's and it keeps, you know, I guess the blood flowing, it keeps your brain working right? Keeps your body working right. You know, if you eat reasonably healthy there are limitations.

Rick Mater (24:04):

And the one I had to face was I turned 76 a couple months ago, is that I'm transitioning from distance running to power, hiking, hiking, mixed in with running because it's just a fact of life that the body recovers slower. But it's still, you know, walking though though, not with a couple of Starbucks <laugh> and talking to your friend. Well talk to your friend, but, you know, like brisk walking, you know, I, I, you know, I, I live in the hills, so, so it's very easy to go up and, you know, you got a really good workout doing that.

Larry (24:48):

Those of us with dogs know what <laugh>.

Rick Mater (24:52):

<Laugh>, yes. They used to have dogs. Yes. They'll, they'll get you out every day,

Larry (24:56):

At least twice. And we're in, we're in Massachusetts, so in the summer, three times a day,

Rick Mater (25:05):

Huh?

Larry (25:05):

When the days get a little warmer and gets light a little later. Let's get back to your book for a second. Six hours. What do you hope the book accomplishes

Rick Mater (25:21):

That you know, that it's, I don't wanna get too grandiose, but that it's got an inspirational element to it because it's really, you know, life is about living, you know, living it, moving forward and that, that a heart attack doesn't mean, you know, it's the end of life as you know it. So I think that's an important takeaway is, is staying active and, and it helps you overcome medical problems like a heart attack, that basically, it, it didn't come totally out of nowhere, to be honest. I had like a fainting episode climbing stairs like a month earlier, and I literally thought, I don't wanna know what that was, but you can't, you can't ignore symptoms like that. But I, but I would say I think that's and, and the Grand Canyon's just like an iconic place to visit, whether you're running or hiking.

Rick Mater (26:23):

I, in the epilog of the book, not to get all Zen, but, but the last time I did the Canyon, you know, running it is kind of like kind of overcoming nature in a way. The last time I did it, I hiked solo on a weekday, almost no people were there. I was on the Tonto Trail at Daybreak, which the Tonto is the longest trail in the canyon. It goes along this, along the Colorado River gorge at the top of the gorge. And, you know, it's a, it's incredible experience. You're, there're alone the Grand Canyon, you and some prickly bear cactus blooming. The sun's coming up, no one around now. It's just a gorgeous experience.

Larry (27:09):

When I was your age, I'm 87 now. When I was your age, my wife and I were in Australia, and one of our challenges was climbing the Harbor Bridge to the top

Rick Mater (27:24):

In Sydney.

Larry (27:25):

In Sydney, yeah, <laugh>. That was, that was a great experience as well.

Rick Mater (27:30):

I didn't know you could do that. So I had, you can literally climb, there's a ladder that goes up to the

Larry (27:35):

There are four ladders. There are, I think they said 1200 steps as you get up to the arc of the bridge on the top. So that was great. Fun as well.

Rick Mater (27:49):

Sounds very cool.

Larry (27:51):

Bit of a workout, but <laugh> good fun. Imagine. Anything else you'd like to add? We talked about cardiac athletes as an important source.

Rick Mater (28:06):

Yeah, it's a support group. I, I tell you, just like I said, my, my view is exercise is really important. Eating, not being fanatical, but eating, basically eating healthy, keeping red meat to a limit. You know, limiting red meat. You know, kind of watching her weight, just like living a healthy lifestyle and, and not taking no for an answer necessarily. Like the cardiologist told me after my first three stents that it was time to hang up my running shoes. And he said, and I questioned that and he said, well, maybe some light jogging 20 minutes three times a week. And you know, not, I think sometimes people are using, looking for an excuse not to exercise. I think it's a lot smarter to try to find ways or new ways, you know, like swimming for example, great cardio. If you have knee issues that doesn't put pressure on your knees, that's great alternative cycling, same thing, less pounding.

Rick Mater (29:14):

But you find ways to keep moving forward because there are a lot of rewards to living a healthier lifestyle. Staying active and finding, I guess finding challenges, you know, whatever that might be. You know, after you leave your full-time employment like you were a dentist, I left television only a month ago actually, and I have to kind make my own decisions. I view myself as not sabbatical because I'm working on another book and then I'll decide what I want to do. But I think it's part of that, you know, finding new challenges in life. You know, if you always wanted to write a novel, forget about running for a minute, you know, I have an novel lot. I might as well just give a quick what's called beat. It came out a few years ago. Tell us about it, <laugh>, as long as you're holding it up.

Rick Mater (30:09):

Okay. Beat was my passion project, which I started formulating many years ago. In a nutshell, it's it's set in San Francisco circa 19 75, 76, and it's a group of 20 somethings, angst ridden, 20 somethings coming out of the end of the counterculture and the anti-war movement and all that. And looking for ways forward in their life. And it's Ramona cleft. It's been well received, especially up in the Bay Area. I did a lot of promotion up there, you know, in bookstores on radio, and it was actually written to be a movie. And we'll see what happens there, but it's and it's available on Amazon and through your local store bookstore. But I, you know, so many people have that thought about writing a book and and it's like, my view is go for it. I actually started these while still working because, because I was curious whether I could do it.

Rick Mater (31:10):

And, and <laugh>, if you decide, if you decide you're leaving your job and you're gonna write that novel I think it's good to at least start it <laugh> before you leave the job. But that's a cool book. I highly recommend it obviously to people especially people let's say in, you know, 60 day, 86 because we all lived through that period in one way or another. I was, don't wanna get off on a big tangent, but I was very involved in the anti-war movement, you know I was in jail with Abby Hoffman, you know, I was in SDS, all that stuff. And the novel, there was a huge transition, everything from politics to pop culture in the mid 1970s. I dunno how many of listeners are into music, but it's the beginning of punk rock, you know, so the Ramones are in the book, blondies in the book.

Rick Mater (32:09):

And, and coming to terms like, and I, and I, I was pleasantly surprised by if you're familiar with Goodreads, you know, it's a big book review site, heavily female, a lot of young women. And it was really fascinating to read their reviews, which were, which were quite favorable and makes me think that it's relatable to every generation going through that period of life where you have to decide what you're gonna do with the rest of your life, especially if you come through something as transformative as the 1960s and the anti-war movement, you know, and, and all that. So I'll just end beat with saying the Billy, the protagonist runs the Grateful Dead t-shirt store in Haight Ashbury, <laugh> <laugh> in 1575, and and, and has to finds its way forward.

Larry (33:04):

And if it gets to be a movie, will you come back on specifically for seniors and talk about it?

Rick Mater (33:11):

Gladly. It's in the hands of some producers. I, I've gotta, now that I'm not working time I'm hoping that I get some, a lot of traction with my next book that can lead to extra attention being devoted to, to beat. Like I said, it was written to be a movie, so, so that was always in mind. So, but getting a movie made is, is is, is its own challenge, <laugh>,

Larry (33:38):

So your basic advice is keep going, keep trying new things.

Rick Mater (33:46):

Yeah, because, you know, and it's really interesting how different everyone is at this point of life. This meaning say, you know, 65 when people are dealing with retirement. Someone I worked with, I worked for a e lifetime, and so when I was handing back my, my equipment, like my laptop and my iPhone, the guy that was receiving it is like 63 and he can't wait to retire 'cause he wants to, he wants to travel. Well, I grew up traveling, we lived in Europe in my hippie days, like crisscross United States and my VW bus, so that's not the top thing for me, but for some people it is. And that's, that's, you know, travel is their way of moving forward.

Larry (34:27):

So, so I met somebody who actually drove a VW bus,

Rick Mater (34:33):

Absolutely <laugh>, that's it on the cover. That's cosmic <laugh> VW Bus, by the way, for any wouldbe authors out there. It's fascinating because you can actually do cover contests for books now online and and, and you know, a Serbian artist came up with this, this cover based on my guidance. But yes, the whole VW bus thing, <laugh> <laugh>, it was its own, it was its own adventure. Unsure

Larry (35:08):

Rick, this is,

Rick Mater (35:09):

I was raised on the East coast in Europe, so you know, I headed for California after college, like San Francisco.

Larry (35:18):

Rick, this has been great fun. Thank you likewise, so much for coming on.

Rick Mater (35:24):

Sure.

Larry (35:26):

And again, if it becomes a movie, I want to hear from you.

Rick Mater (35:31):

Yes, absolutely. You reminded me. I gotta get back to to <laugh> to, to trying to make that happen. Thanks again, Rick. Thank you, Larry.

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